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Cross-over characters

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Cross-over characters

Post  Fujiwara Sayuri on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:04 am

I'm starting this discussion to bring the topic from the chatbox to the forum.

Recently we've had a couple of cross-over profiles appear for ToAru and we all have different points about why some of us are unhappy about this.

Not everybody knows the character you create and we shouldn't be expected to learn a series besides ToAru which the forum is about.


X-Over characters are not balanced the same way in the ToAru universe as espers and magic system are fundamentally different.  


Example.  Slayers vs Touhou.. their magic scaling is different.. and so is ToAru in comparison as they don't fling spells out quickly or spend ages with casting.. it depends on the universe for each magic system.


Espers and Magicians are the general categories for most profiles.. we won't invent new ones to fit your cross-over character.
_________

Saying all this.. if you like a character from another series then why not make an original character and adopt those traits into your character.

If I had to give points to a person doing this.. I'd give more points if your character wasn't simply a clone of another character but mixing it up abit.

- I'd also prefer if people didn't immediately obsess over lvl 4-5 upon choosing their ability.. most abilities in the city are between 1-3 with lvl2 being the peak.
=========

Discuss your view about cross-over characters

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Autumnus Springs on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:40 am

My two cents are as follows. Crossovers can be a-OK! Really! BUT, and it's a big BUT, the character has to be modified heavily to fit the general feel of the Toaru verse.

Having a character who was sent from his dying planet, and came to Earth as a saviour, with superhuman abilities far surpassing any human doesn't work.

Having a character who was sent to Academy City to avoid certain peril, was adopted by a kindly couple, and has level 3 Superstrength is OK. You can even name him Clark Kent if you want! Although that would be a bit weird when roleplaying.


The key words are balance and background.

First, the character has to be balanced in terms of the story. Here's a quick test. Can your character beat Accelator (Pre-Injury) effortlessly. If so, then recheck.

Secondly, background. Make sure that your character makes sense in terms of the story. Again, how they act is up to you, but still, we can't have anyone add to Canon without careful consideration. Otherwise, Academy City would be in space.

Freeform roleplaying encourages a wide variety of options, far more than any other system. But at the same time, that comes with a responsibility.

While crossovers can work, there have to be limitations. We don't want people to get discouraged because they wanted to play a certain character, but we don't want that character to overpower the RP. Rather, see how you can mold the character to fit the Toaruverse, and you should be good.

Keeping a name and a face is OK, usually. After all, "A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet", and "What's in a name" and all that jazz.

It's simple really. We are here to have fun. Really! But still. We are a Roleplay based on the To Aru Verse. Not based on any other universe. Except, y'know. Out of Canon stuff.

But still, we are a Roleplay based Primarily off of the To Aru Verse, and we have certain standards, and the standard is already too low to waive.

Then again. I just got approved. I also use second person pronouns in essays, which isn't good.

But it is my personal opinion that:
1) We remain focused on the To Aru Verse.
2) Characters that fit the Canon are fine, unless there is an outstanding reason.
3) Crossover characters must be balanced to the rest of the characters.
4) This website has a great deal of information that can help you create a character, and the little chatbox in the corner is full of people willing to help make a character your own.
5) We're all friends here.
6) Crossover Characters should be judged on a case to case basis. e.g. while most iterations of Superman may not work, Batman fits the Canon pretty well, somehow.
7) If it is overt, then at least change the name. Especially of they are an iconic character. Like Batman.




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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Autumnus Springs on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:46 am

And it would be nice to see more lower level people. But usually when roleplaying, one plays the best of the best. Or atleast one of the elite.

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Fujiwara Sayuri on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:00 am

Low levels have more depth to them I think that simply handing a character a sticker to say their power is OP.

Kita was supposed to be a teleporter at first.. and although it'd of been cool.. what about now?  She's a failed teleporter who can only teleport from pointA-A.. which may sound like it sucks.. but because of this its made an interesting character design.

She uses A-A teleports as a fundamental cutting tool, like Kuroko proved with displacing the glass panes with Trick in Railgun.


Fujiwara Ami.. a level 0 passive ability user.  Her ability can't be controlled directly and its a pain to her.. but because of this it shapes her character.
_______

I guess my point I'm trying to say is.. people shouldn't just define a character by just their interested power.. but think of quirks as well which relate to problems they have to deal with.

I think if every character had a large problem to overcome.. which they couldn't.. then it'd make for an interesting character.  - Even in real-life I have some things I can't do.. so I adapt accordingly.. this shapes who I am in-comparison to you or other posters.

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  [OLD] Shirai Kuroko on Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:55 am

Rather than making it a rule to tell anyone to feel like they're forced to play a weaker character by setting up a standard that they must make a lv1~3, why not just have it so that you leave the whole rank thing up to the mods instead? 

They'll have to have a look at it eventually anyway so doesn't it make more sense for the mods to have a look at the power first and determine what rank the OC Espers get?

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Misaka Mikoto on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:25 pm

Some nice points have been raised here, and I will definitely incorporate some of them into the FAQs (especially for newbies) project for this site I'm hoping to work on during my holidays in July. 

I agree that lower-leveled espers/ less powerful characters most often turn out to be more interesting, purely because they have more weaknesses to work with and develop from. They also find more unique strengths within them that allow them to be more original and able to be differentiated from other characters. [Saten Ruiko is a major canon example] Perhaps there could be a way of encouraging new rpers to take on the challenge(?) of adopting lower levelled characters?

Us mods don't really want to be restrictive and implement a rule like "only 10% of existing characters can be level 4s" and such (I believe Guy/ Touko would feel the same way). We want to give rpers as much freedom as we can, and we want to be able to trust people not to abuse it. And if anyone does... that's what we're here for, right? Wink

Rather than making it a rule to tell anyone to feel like they're forced to play a weaker character by setting up a standard that they must make a lv1~3, why not just have it so that you leave the whole rank thing up to the mods instead? 
They'll have to have a look at it eventually anyway so doesn't it make more sense for the mods to have a look at the power first and determine what rank the OC Espers get?








Other than the we-don't-want-to-be-Nazis issue I've addressed above, the other problem I can see with this is that it would make it quite difficult for the rper to create their character powers and describe it clearly. Without having a proper "target" level of power in mind while working on the profile, the rper could potentially overpower their characters even further while creating them.

About x-over characters, again, I agree with many of the points mentioned here. 
Ideas may be "borrowed" from other characters from other series, but not "cloned". One shouldn't expect people to just understand who they are talking about in another series. All abilities should be detailed as much as possible in their profiles and explained in a way that makes sense in the Toaru world. As people above have said, magic works differently in different series and should be altered to suit Toaru's methods. Yes, believe it or not, this IS a Toaru rping forum and that's what you have signed up to be a part of.

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Autumnus Springs on Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:15 pm

Ooooh, what if we gave lower level characters a bonus of some sort, like, say, greater access to institutes and organizations? Like Guy, as a teacher, has more resources than, say, a level 4 student, and (in Canon) Nunotaba has access to research facilities!

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Autumnus Springs on Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:22 pm

Or we could set up a Luck system, where users could use a certain amount of luck to get something unlikely, and the weaker you are, as judged by either a moderator or a vote, the more Luck you got.

e.g. Using say, 3 Luck to find something that was lost or extremely difficult to find without actively searching for it.

Maybe?

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Fujiwara Sayuri on Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:54 pm

I agree with Misaka's point.
When I created my character I had a base level but then after I got my idea down I then went back and tried scaling it by making a level bar.

An example of a level bar can be done with Misaka and the Misaka Network.
Level 0 - nothing
Level 1 - 1x power potential
Level 2 - 10x power potential
Level 3 - 100x power potential
Level 4 - 1000x power potential
Level 5 - 10,000x power potential

Now I'm not say its those exact figures or if I can remember how many volts at the top of my head.. but the point is that each ability will have a limitation on it so the level bar can be used.

An example of my character.. Mori Kita; Proximity Teleport where its A-A teleporting.
Her ability is limited by weight.

Level 1 - Parlour tricks.. a few small items
Level 2 - A bigger inventory
Level 3 - She can carry her own weight
Level 4 - Carry several people's weight
Level 5 - Could carry a heavy car or more.

I know that the leveling scheme is sorted by how much an esper can warp reality and most of the time they scale the system by factors of 10 so each level is a considerable difference.

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  [OLD] Shirai Kuroko on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:56 pm

Misaka Mikoto wrote:Other than the we-don't-want-to-be-Nazis issue I've addressed above

I think there's a clear distinction between being a nazi and moderating the issue. 

Removing the ability ranking from the template doesn't really restrict the player from coming up with an original ability. But let's look at the core of the problem and why I am suggesting the idea of removing it from the template. 

I'm sure all of us can agree by now that we don't want to see the forum over populated with Lv5 Espers. Fair call since canon wise we know there is only a handful of lv5 and they're not common at all. So it goes without saying that it's more common sense than an iron clad rule to put up on the rules sections don't make a Lv5 Esper. But let's say we don't have any rules to explain to the newcomers that they're not allowed to make a Lv5 Espers (which at the time of this post we don't), is the moderation team going to accept Lv5 OC Espers? 

By all means if the OC is a great addition and if we choose to stray from canon knowledge we could. But somehow I personally feel this isn't a great move and we should probably stick to canon knowledge of 7 lv5 Espers (6 of them having been introduced already with Aogami Pierce being fantasized by fans to be a potential joker that has yet to surface as a Lv5). 

That being said, I just don't see it at all to be honest. OC Esper Lv5 and even if it's approved it's somewhat doubtful we'll approve more than 1. 

Are we then safe to assume that there will be no OC Lv5 Espers? Let's put this thought on hold. 

That leaves us with Lv1 to Lv4 Espers. 

Do people fancy seeing Lv4 Espers and I mean by 99.99% of them. No? As a community I personally would like to see a bit of variation of Espers and as we previously discussed, Levels aren't all there is to it as Kamijou-san proved to us in his first encounter with the strongest Lv5 Esper in Academy City. Sure our protagonist isn't your ordinary Lv0 but you get the drift. 

Let's recap and summarize the points. Nazism 

I feel it's unnecessary effort on the applicant's part to write up their ideas of making a Lv4~5 Esper only to have a mod tell them to make a Lv(1~3, MAYBE 4 but DEFINITELY not 5). Indirectly dictating people to don't make Lv5 Espers is what I think the newcomers would feel after having their character proposal turned down when there is no rules clearly explaining that it goes against common sense to have X many Lv5 Espers in the rp. 

Having them assigned might be an easier option since a moderator can easily tell how a certain Esper's power should be classified. It also seems more fair to let the player know in advance that their powers will be moderated and judged by a moderator to fit/balance into To Aru world, than telling them after their first moderation that they can't make Lv5 Espers. 


Misaka Mikoto wrote:the other problem I can see with this is that it would make it quite difficult for the rper to create their character powers and describe it clearly. Without having a proper "target" level of power in mind while working on the profile, the rper could potentially overpower their characters even further while creating them.



I don't quite follow by when you mention them having no target level of power in mind. With or without the section to fill out in the template it seems to make sense for me to imagine that a applicant will at least have some thoughts in what type of target power level they want before creating the character regardless. The rpers definitely could overpower their characters in the process of designing their powers but that's a completely different issue altogether since the balancing issue comes to light be it a power they ripped off from another show or a completely original one. 

With or without the right to prematurely conclude which power level their character belongs in, it'll be up to each moderator to read and decide whether the character suits the power level the player gave them or needs a tweaking to either increase or decrease levels. An example would be let's say a character is made and his power is the ability to bend metal spoons and other eating utensils with his fingers and this character supposedly has a power lvl of Lv5 Spoonbender. 

In this case the character is clearly underpowered in contrast to the power lvl given by the player and the moderator would definitely inform the player that it would make more sense for them to fix it to Lv1 Spoonbender. If it was up to the moderator to give the rankings, they can examine the power and what it does and give them Lv1 during the moderation. 

In a sense you guys are already practicing this (afterall whether you leave the option to fill out your own ranks or not it doesn't change the fact that a moderator will examine the power for what it's worth and then decide if the community needs anymore Lv(input number 1~5) before giving the verdict whether to leave that number unchanged of fixed), only subtle difference is fixing up the template to be rid of the option to fill out the power lvl on your own so that a more suitable power lvl can be given to them after thorough examination. Either way the player will have to accept the moderation anyway. 

Not completely in context but also think about what happens in canon. 

Espers don't actually have the ability to "know" what power rating they belong in. Rather, all Espers undergo thorough examinations and moderations before they are "told" what Lvl their power is. If I had to put it into context, imagine a Saten-san. Now imagine her telling everyone that she is a Lv5 Skirtflipper (actually she might be but let's ignore this groundbreaking discovery for now and focus on the discussion). If you were in the shoes of an Esper, do you really believe her or do you look at The Bank Archives (PokeDex) to find out what the moderation team thinks? Let's go back to reality, looks similar yes? 


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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Misaka Mikoto on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:07 am


As I said before, Guy, Touko and I will look into the issue further and try to come up with possible solutions that could be implemented. However, please do realise these things take time and effort to do- it may take up to a few months to try new things and see what works and doesn’t work. We’re grateful (and glad) that you guys are able to step forward and tell us what you’re unhappy/dissatisfied about- it’s a definite step towards improvement and we encourage you to speak up if you ever come across anything that could be ameliorated.


That said, it also must be realised that no matter how hard we try, we can’t keep everyone completely satisfied. We can aim towards it, but it’s often difficult to achieve. Now that we know what the main issue is here, I ask that for now, to please have a little faith that we’ll do our job as moderators properly. We’ll work together to try and find a solution (and of course, ideas are welcome) that will rise the happiness level to the maximum possible. Continuously complaining, attacking newcomers who may not be aware of these issues, pestering about topics that have already been finalised (just because you are the only one not happy with it), only serve to distract us from the actual problems at hand and push us backwards.


I agree that some of the rules for character creation and moderation aren’t very clear at this moment, and that’s what I’m hoping to work on with our mod team by surveying our forum members’ opinions. As I’ve said, it’ll take time and effort- so I ask that you all please exercise a bit of patience. Once upon a time, we only had a few members- it goes without saying that it was easier to collaborate with only a small group; there was no real need for strict or extensively-outlined rules. With the sudden increase of members this month (don’t get me wrong- I’m very excited about this!), it’s becoming more and more difficult to keep everyone satisfied with the small set of fundamentals we’ve had before.


I believe there is a rule saying no OC level 5’s are allowed, but I may be wrong and it may not be actually written down anywhere. Again, this is the result of our smaller playerbase (assumed rules) in the past. We’ll work to address this problem.


About the moderators determining the character’s level, I’m still not convinced it would work. You gave a canon example Shirai, but the rp forum mechanism is different to an anime universe (unfortunately!). I’m pretty sure the author determined the character’s level as they were being designed… Just because we find out in the anime in that manner (after getting a test done) doesn’t mean that’s what the anime creator himself did as well. Of course, Guy and Touko may disagree with me, but I just don’t think the suggest method very logical and could potentially open doors to new problems down the track. As you said though, either way, one of the clearest rules on this site is that character must gain mod approval before being allowed to rp. Ultimately then, isn’t this problem about the process a moderator goes through before deciding to accept a character? That seems to be the issue we have to focus on in the end.


I’ll leave it here for now. To me, one thing is very much definite, we (mods) have some work to do.

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Re: Cross-over characters

Post  Guy Li on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:07 am

Right. Now that the tension has died down a little I feel like I can say my piece without riling things up.

Simply put, crossover characters are already part of this RP and have been in some form since its inception (The original faction, which . The key thing is that they have to be made to fit the To aru universe as opposed to altering the rules of the universe to fit the character.

This means no straight porting characters from other sources. All abilities, backstory etc must be made to fit the rules of our AU.

It also means that they've got to be introduced sparsely. Therefore they'll be subject to more strict approval moderation than regular OCs.

And that's the core of the issue. We as moderators have the final say. If needed we will tone characters down and may even request you change what you deem to be important parts of the character before approving them. That is our perogative and we will have to use our fair judgement.

I hope this puts people's minds at rest. If you;ve got any more objections than please feel free to reply with them.

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