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[Magician] Ascanius Benedict

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[Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Ascanius Benedict on Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:14 pm

Ascanius Benedict

Scire956 "To unite Theos and Logos once and for all."



"The way of Logic is the way of Man. If you go against reason, you go against not only me but yourself."



FULL NAME: Ascanius Anselm Benedict
OTHER ALIAS: Lumen Monachorum
CURRENT AGE: 28 (Born July 17, 1986)
GENDER: Male
OCCUPATION: Theologian/Monk
SCHOOL: N/A
FACTION: Roman Catholic Church, Order of Aquinas



APPEARANCE: Ascanius is from Northern Italy, and relatively tall. He wears a black overcoat covering his white turtleneck sweater, which is a modernization of the traditional Dominican clothing pattern of a black coat on top of a white monk's habit. He usually wears his hat as well in order to shield his eyes.
HEIGHT: 175 cm
WEIGHT: 63.5 kg
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: His height is ~5 cm more than the average Japanese adult.


PERSONALITY:
Committed
Ascanius never backs down on a commitment. This is an important thing for a member of a monastic order like him, which requires a lifelong devotion. However, it generally applies to his life in a more mundane way. He holds all his own promises at the same level as a divine covenant, even the most insignificant.
Logical
One of the first things Ascanius learned was that the universe is always logical. Even when things seem to happen for no reason, all one needs to do is take a step back and see how everything is related to everything else. Using this as a model, Ascanius tries to keep his own actions as logical and reasonable as possible. Since God is perfectly logical, the more logical his own mind is the closer he thinks to God.

Quick-Thinking
The whole business of Theological Philosophy requires intense analysis. You need to study Scripture closely, and the works of all those before you even closer. Then, you need to quickly format arguments and use them against your opponent. The one with the most watertight logic gains the possibility of having their work being made official by the Church. This has taught Ascanius to be able to come up with sensible ideas on the spot, ones which have few if any logical holes.

Moral
Ascanius tries his best to lead a moral life. He recognizes that there are some times when morality must be laid aside, as he is currently doing in Academy City. However, he tries to refrain from hurting innocents, and he would rather be nobly captured than escape through the use of a hostage. Being in "enemy" territory has taxed his morals to the limits, but he still adheres by them.

LIKES:
- Thomas Aquinas
- Fish
- Tomatoes
- Being right
DISLIKES:
- Academy City
- Pork
- Chicken
- Logical errors

STRENGTHS:
Swift - It's not only in Ascanius' mind. As someone trained in magic by the Roman Catholic Church, a certain amount of athletic training comes with the mental part. After all, it takes both mind, body, and spirit to make up a man. Ascanius is extremely fast, although his strength isn't anywhere near what someone would consider strong. Plus, his long legs allow him to take fewer strides and cover distances with less effort.

WEAKNESSES:
Malleable - Ascanius has little to no knowledge of Japan or Japanese customs. He's rather easy to take advantage of in this respect, as he wants to blend in as much as possible. He already has his height working against him, so he wants to appear as "Japanese" as possible. Someone who knows this could convince him of fake customs that hurt his position or just make him seem ridiculous.
Weak - Ascanius is very thin and very unmuscular. His physical strength is subpar, and so he prefers to stay out of range of his enemies. If he were ever in a melee battle, he would almost certainly lose.

HISTORY:
Ascanius was born in Northern Italy to a relatively normal family. He was the second of four children, and from a young age he displayed an interest in learning. He strove to do well in every school he entered, and he did. However, in High School, he took a liking to the realm of Philosophy. It had very few rules, and as long as you could construct your arguments well, you could convince people of almost anything. This fluid realm held a far greater appeal to him than the rigid workings of the universe, and so he began to study deeper into the field. This was where he discovered the works of Thomas Aquinas.

What a genius! He had been writing in the Medieval times and Ascanius, even with all of modern knowledge, couldn't refute many of his points. This was a man truly worth striving to become. If Medieval times could produce a man this great, then he should endeavor to be as Medieval as possible. He would isolate himself from advanced technology and dedicate his life to learning instead. Ascanius vowed that he would join a monastic order and found the perfect match in the Order of Aquinas.

It was a "New Wave" monastic order dedicated to linking the thought from the Medieval eras and modern day. For that purpose, its members adopted a much more lax dress code and an active stance towards education. However, the most important work it did, and the focus of the order, was to advance theology into the modern era and come up with a "Unified Theory of God."

Each member was to work towards this theory in their own way, and all individual efforts would eventually be combined into a single work. While working on his own pieces, Ascanius realized how truly great God actually was, and how privileged he was to be able to decipher bits and pieces of Him. He was now truly a part of the grand tradition which extended from Aristotle and Plato all the way to the great Scholastic Saints Augustin, Anselm, and Aquinas. Each day he devoted himself to logically unraveling small pieces of the great mystery that was God, and he eventually advanced at such a pace that he was granted full admission into the Order almost six months prematurely.

When he was fully admitted into the Order after taking his vows, the nature of magic was revealed to him. He learned that most religious organizations nowadays used magic in order to support their own Church, and to combat threats from the outside. The Order of Aquinas served as a company of soldiers in these cases, and due to his skill with logic Ascanius was elevated to a fairly high rank. He became proficient with the Order's brand of magic, "Syllogistic Reality," and he finally attracted the attention of the Vatican itself.

He was sent on a mission to serve as one of the Roman Catholic Church's "operatives" in Academy City, keeping an eye on science-side activities while appearing to support them. The Church got its chance when the alchemist Aureolus Izzard took over a cram school, and the Superintendant of the City asked the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches for help solving the problem. Ascanius was sent along with several other forces to take out the alchemist, although the Anglicans ultimately succeeded.

As per the Vatican's orders, he faked his own death and went off into the night, carrying forged papers the Vatican had made for him. He bought a small apartment and began to keep his vigil over the city, looking out for anything worth reporting to the Pope.

RANK: Battle Monk/Educator
Scire956: "To unite Theos and Logos once and for all."

Syllogistic Reality:
Ascanius can use a simple form of logic, syllogisms, to manipulate reality. Syllogisms are formed in three lines with two premises and a conclusion:
"Socrates is a man."
"All men are mortal."
"Thus, Socrates is mortal."

In order to create the spell, two premises are required. One of the premises must be absolutely, undebatably true. The other one is false, but it is imbued with magic power in order to trick the Universe in believing that it is true. Because of these two premises, one true and one fake, a false "conclusion" comes into being and affects the Universe.
True Premise: "The object I am holding is an egg."
False Premise: "All eggs are apples."
False Conclusion: "The object I am holding is an apple."
This syllogism would change the egg the caster is holding into an apple. However, since only the conclusion affects reality, the only egg changed into an apple is the one referred to in the conclusion.
This magic is based on the Christian doctrine that God is an inherently logical being that created an inherently logical Universe. Since humans were made "in the image and likeness of God," they too can use logic to a limited extent to manipulate the Universe around them. Syllogisms, as one of the simplest forms of logic, provide an easy opportunity to effect these manipulations.
Since Ascanius' magic derives from Christian doctrine, he needs a copy of that doctrine in front of him to use the magic. In short, he needs a Christian book, one with significant ties to Christianity. Not all those are equal, though. A picture children's bible would not work as well as, for example, the original writings of one of the Church Fathers. The older a book is, the longer it has been in this reality, and the better it functions as a tether. In addition, Ascanius' magic works best when used with books written in Latin, Greek, or Aramaic/Hebrew since his magic is derived from Christianity and these three languages are intrinsically related to it.
Finally, the book is much more effective if it's in a language Ascanius knows. Of those three languages, the only one Ascanius is fluent in is Latin, so it would be the most effective. The difference is large when all three factors are brought into account: A 1st-century Latin manuscript would allow him to bring up his spells almost instantly, while a Russian children's bible printed the day before he used it could take upwards to 60 seconds to get a syllogism running. With the book which he typically uses, a 1480 Latin Bible, he takes from 2 to 5 seconds to finish a spell.

A second weakness is in the manifestation of the spell. Although the effects the magic produces cannot be negated, its physical form can be dodged. When constructing a syllogism, Ascanius holds the book out in front of him and seemingly "pulls" the three lines of the syllogism out while muttering them aloud. These three lines are written in whichever language the book is in, although the dictation is generally in Latin, since that's the language of the Church. These three lines will remain for a minimum of however long the syllogism takes to prepare, a time which is based on the other conditions. However, they can remain for as long as Ascanius can concentrate on them. Any syllogism Asganius prepares, he must still be conscious and concentrated in order to use it. Even if he is preparing a three-line set, if he is knocked unconscious while preparing it, it will not take effect. In addition, he can only prepare a single syllogism at a time, so it is to his advantage to prepare and use them as fast as possible. When he wants to "fire" the syllogism, under normal circumstances, the three lines condense into a single one, the last line describing the conclusion, and "shoots" toward the target. Although this is fast, if the target is fast enough themselves they could dodge the spell. There is also a method for targeting people out of Ascanius' line of sight, somewhat like an area-effect syllogism. Its range, however, is only about 100 meters, and it has a higher chance of failure. In a severe circumstance, it may even backfire on Ascanius, subjecting himself to whatever the effect is. For this reason, he prefers to see his target.

Another reason why a direct line of sight is preferable is because Ascanius needs to have a clear picture of whatever his target for the spell is. For example, if he desired to use a syllogism on the General Superintendant of Academy City, he has no idea what they look like. Therefore, the spell would have a remarkably high chance of failure or backfiring. Ascanius' magic has the least chance of failure if he is either looking at the target at the moment, or has seen the target within the past 2 minutes. The less detail he can remember them in, the less of a chance the spell has of succeeding.

Finally, there are certain things which even his syllogisms cannot do.
1. They cannot interfere with the subject's will. This is derived from the Christian view of voluntary action, where not even God can take away a person's free choice. Instead, he can only influence the will through his position as First Mover, through proposing an apettible object for the will, or through changing the body. Ascanius is not the First Mover, so he can only use the latter two methods. He can use syllogisms to change an object to one which the target would desire, or he can induce minor changes in the target's body to push them towards his desired decision.
2. Ascanius cannot simply create or destroy objects. He can alter them and their compositions, but creation and destruction are things which are left to God, the First Mover.
3. The ways in which Ascanius can affect humans or living creatures are very minor. The more "rational" a being is, the more difficult it is to use ration against: A paradox similar to the fact that it is very easy to magically fly, but also very easy to prevent magical flight. He cannot physically alter the body, and the most severe ways he can induce "changes" in humans are through causing hormone imbalances, though he doesn't know this consciously.

OTHER ABILITIES:

Multilingual
Ascanius is fluent in English, Italian, and Latin. He knows a good amount of Greek, French, and German. However, he is relatively poor at Japanese. This works to his disadvantage in a Japanese-dominant location such as Academy City, where Latin books are scarce if he misplaces the two he owns.

Magnum Manuscriptum
One of the two books Ascanius usually carries with him. This particular one is a section from the New Testament of a 1480 Bible, printed in Latin. He uses it almost exclusively for his magical focus object due to its age and the language it's written in. He's had it rebound to look like a more modern book in order to avoid suspicion.

Summa Theologica
The other of the two books Ascanius usually carries. The Summa Theologica was the greatest work of St. Thomas Aquinas, the namesake of Ascanius' monastic order and his perpetual idol. This book is heavily used and annotated, with Ascanius' own proofs, arguments, and refutations in the margins.


CHARACTER THEME:
Theme - Rubicon (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure OST)


PLAYER'S NAME: Masaru Oshiro
RATING: R
FACE CLAIM: Yoite from Nabari no Ou
OTHER CHARACTERS: Masaru Oshiro, Lv. 2 Lightnign Recall
MISC. INFORMATION: Any other important information regarding this profile.


Last edited by Ascanius Benedict on Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:04 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Editing in birthdays)

Ascanius Benedict
Scire956

Posts : 10
Join date : 2014-12-26
Age : 30
Location : Academy City, Japan

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Ascanius Benedict on Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:10 pm

Test Post:
He'd been spotted. And he'd left his coat at his house. The coat which had both the books he used to cast spells. Ascanius didn't give it a second thought; He ran.

He was in Academy City, the hotbed of the enemy, on a special assignment by the Roman Catholic Church. Tensions between the two organizations were increasing, and he was supposed to keep an eye on suspicious activity that would be of interest to the Vatican. Tonight, he had intended to be a silent, unseen observer while two Dark Side organizations and their sub-organizations met to discuss matters. He hadn't expected their security to be good enough to catch him, but he supposed with increasing tensions elsewhere the Dark Side was also beefing up its strength.

He ran and he thought. He needed a book; his magic was almost impossibly slow without one. The streets in the area were mostly dark, an unfortunate circumstance for him. He turned the corner of the alleyway and saw a single student, probably walking home from a late-night class. Idiots! Didn't they know these streets were dangerous at night? He ran up behind the boy, who had only just turned to look at him before Ascanius grabbed the convenience store bag he was holding. Was there anything he could use?

Yes. A paperback book, which he quickly took out. He yelled "Sorry!" to the stunned boy as he headed back to face whatever the organization had sent after him. Which book was it? His face fell as he saw the title. "Weekly Shonen Stars Magazine." He'd be casting magic from some schoolboy's manga magazine. Well, it couldn't be helped. At least he knew some Japanese. He estimated the casting time to be 15 seconds.

Around the corner came two armed thugs. They were carrying handguns and aiming both at him. Priority #1: Disarm them. He squinted hard to visualize their faces as well as he could, then ducked back around the corner. He heard two bullets hit the other end of the alley behind him and the running footsteps as they approached.

"Both the men chasing me are my enemies."
"All my enemies have no weapons."
"Both the men chasing me have no weapons."

These three lines floated out of the book in front of him, appearing in Japanese text and softly glowing white. Another 5 seconds... The thugs rounded the corner, but immediately recoiled at the sight. One of them muttered "So he's an Esper.."

Normally Ascanius would have debated that openly, but it didn't matter now. The spell was complete, and the two men looked at each other in shock as their handguns vanished. It only intensified when they checked their belt for any other weapon they'd had, most likely a club, and found those missing as well. It was good that he'd had the forethought to remove all their weapons, and not just the guns. However, they still looked dangerous.

While he was trying to guess their next move, they made it. Both charged him at once, knocking the book out of his hand. He cursed. That meant anything he could do would take almost 45 seconds, although the letters would be much less visible. He started thinking up the syllogism.

"Both the men in front of me tried to shoot me."
"Everyone who has tried to shoot me is asleep."
"Both the men in front of me are asleep."

A much dimmer light appeared behind the men, this time with the words in Italian, Ascanius' native language. However, they didn't pay it any heed. One of them grabbed his shoulder and lifted him up. Although Ascanius was fast, he wasn't strong. There was no way he could resist, so he didn't.

"Looks like we've got a spy over here."

His colleague approached, punching his hand threateningly. He just needed to stall for... about 25 more seconds. Unfortunately, that time could be an eternity in a battle.

"What were you up to, huh, spy? Trying to eavesdrop on our meeting. We're going to have to make sure you keep your nose out of places it doesn't belong!"

With the last word, he issued a punch to Ascanius' gut. It hurt considerably, but he didn't lose his concentration. 18 seconds. The colleague had arrived, and was now leaning so close his breath could easily be smelled.

"What my friend there means to say is, if you still have a nose after this."

This could be bad. Adcanius paused as long as he could before opening his mouth as if to speak. 10 seconds.

"Oh, the rat wants to squeak now! What is it, you filthy scrub?"

7 seconds.

"I was just thinking..."

The expressions on the two men only increased in anger as they heard the calm words. Ascanius smiled. He had the upper hand now. 3 seconds.

"...that irrational anger is often the result of poor sleeping patterns."

0 seconds. Just as they reacted to his comment, they fell asleep. The one holding onto Ascanius dragged him down to the ground as he fell to his knees, but it was easier to escape now. He would figure out the result of the meeting some other way. There was no use in returning when security would be even higher.

Ascanius Benedict
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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Mugino Shizuri on Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:43 pm

Wow, finally! My first magician!

1. You know, he feels a little too open minded for a Roman Catholic monk. Is there a great devotion to God in his heart? What are his opinions about the science world? What is his opinion in Christian traditions?
I feel like he’s lacking something on the scale to qualify as a sheep of the Roman Catholic Church.

2. It’s kind of refreshing to read a magician’s history for once, however there are some things bugging me, as usual.

Does the Roman Catholic Church know that he had only faked his death or do they consider him dead?

The usual problem about spies within Academy City is the possibility of them spying on the secrets of the science world, which is pretty much something similar to your testpost’s scenario. If Acanius would be caught spying in such cases, he’d be taken care of. There’s a limit to how deep a spy’s interests should go, otherwise their safety would vanish.
A good spy is one that doesn’t endanger the world’s order.

3. To shoot it out right at the beginning: This ability is way too OP and therefore won’t be approved the way it is.

In fact it does give off similar vibes to Ars Magna and we all know how broken this ability was. Influencing the universe to such an extent is just out of reach, as it would literally allow one to do anything they want and let anything they can imagine become reality, no limits, nothing. What Ascanius wishes to happen will happen, without a doubt.
And it will, simply because there’s no way to dodge it. Good, you may have some time left to figure out what is coming at you, but the fact that it will hit you can’t be avoided.
Let’s use your fire example. Once the spell is cast one is destined to burn. So what to do to prevent it? The next river is like 500m away and there is no random tank of water lying around every corner. You’re forced to think, think, think and then poof too late, you are burned to a crisp. Game Over.
It turns out even worse if you consider the first hit advantage, since unprepared targets are pretty much done for once faced with this magic.

What is this spell even based on? I can’t really see any lore or mythology backing it up, nor can I see religious symbols in your description. Those are necessary, though – at least in my eyes. Most spells are crafted using something as a baseline. It’s very rare for a magician to build a spell from point zero, the work behind it is just too hard and the chances of creating an actually working spell are very low.
Long story short: Please at least use Christian symbols or lore as the baseline of a spell.

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Ascanius Benedict on Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:05 pm

All right!
Point #1: Good ideas. I'll make sure to add something in for that.

Point #2: The Roman Catholic Church does know that he isn't really dead. The plan was to use the incident to get him into the city without suspicion and fabricate an excuse for leaving him there. I'll add that.

Point #3: I know the Magic power is too OP. No debate there. I thought we could work together and think of ways to appropriately nerf it. However, he would still need appropriate magical strength to be able to work alone as a Roman Catholic operative in Academy City. After all, when you're going into the hotbed of the enemy, you need to be able to hold your own against some of them if things go south.

One thing I think I forgot to mention is that he needs to be fully conscious and relatively concentrated for the spell to work. In the case of the test post, if the two people chasing him had actually shot him, the pain would have inhibited him further from performing magic. Similarly, if they had knocked him out before the "sleep" syllogism came into effect, it wouldn't have worked. His spells can be avoided if he becomes too severely distracted, injured, or is forced to lose consciousness.

However, I still agree that a nerf on what the power can do is required. I'm not sure how to work that, though - perhaps he can't use overly general premises, such as "All humans" or "All Espers," he has to find something specific about the person he's targeting that will allow him to make the syllogism?

Finally, the lore behind it. Ascanius' magic isn't based in a specific piece of Christian lore or a specific Christian symbol. Instead, it is based in the Christian tradition of Systematic Theology, the branch of theology which deals with figuring out the workings of God through the means of Logic. Hence the reason for his magic name, "I will unite Theos and Logos once and for all." By choosing this reason, he is swearing his commitment to prove the essential premise of Systematic Theology: That God is a Rational (read: Logic-obeying) being that created a Rational universe. This is also the only reason his magic works, because of the Christian doctrine that the Universe obeys the laws of logic.

The form of the Syllogism itself is technically pagan, first formally defined by Aristotle. However, it is one of the simplest forms of logic besides the "If...then" statement, and the fact that it uses two premises invites the opportunity to magically alter one of them. Syllogisms were used to great extent throughout the Classical and Medieval phases of the Christian Church, and although more complicated logic has been introduced today, they remain an important tool due to their simplicity and ease of construction.


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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Mugino Shizuri on Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:36 am

Ok, this will only be about his ability and my ideas about nerfing it.

#1 In my opinion not every book would work, only those of Christian origin, preferably the Bible, because – as you said – his spell is based on the tradition of Christian theology and therefore would need a symbol representing exactly that. Hence I see need for a symbol expressing God’s logic and therefore the Bible at best. Doesn’t sound too difficult to get your hands on one, any kind of Bible would suffice.
An old Roman Catholic one written in Latin would of course work far better than a cheap Japanese print meant for little children to read. Such things should actually influence the spell’s overall strength.

#2 I see need for him to speak out his Syllogisms so that the target is able to understand him. By that I mean that the target shouldn’t only be able to hear the words, yet also be capable to understand the meaning behind the words, saying the language used. An easy thing if you consider that nearly EVERY character in the To Aru Verse is capable of speaking Japanese and most English.

#3 As for influencing a person’s mind as seen in your testpost, I need to point out that this needs to be weakened. You can’t simply go ahead and command someone to sleep and then they will sleep. Such feats are branded as mind control and banned.
The only way such things would work, would be as a kind of suggestion, like if you would command one to sleep, people would feel tired, but not forced into sleep. You would never be able to set a straight command that will be followed, only an urge within people’s mind that they aren’t forced to follow.
Or maybe at least knock them out in the case of sleeping.

#4 Dodging. I don’t really care how you are going to make it possible, but I want it to be an option. Make the words manifest in front of him and fire them as projectiles or let this spell work somewhat like Agnese’s Lotus Wand, which does not only have a person based but also an area based effect, so that the target is able to somehow miraculously dodge last second. Just leave that option in some way.
It just isn’t logical for a person to see through this spell the first time they get to see it.

#5 Making things disappear isn’t a given. Destroying the weapons, knocking them out of the target’s hands or maybe even forcing them to let go, that’s within the limits, but teleporting them away? No.
The same goes for spells or abilities. You can’t deny them with your logic, as those are either within God’s or Pagan logic. So cancelling effects wouldn’t be approved.


Last edited by Mugino Shizuri on Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  [Old] Index on Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:32 pm

Stepping in to help Iva with polishing the ability.

After some discussion we came to a conclusion that might shock you.

Here is a list of things that we found answers for. When compared to Ars Magna which had a restrictive zone of effectiveness by a bounded field this ability didn't seem to have such restrictions so we will like to keep it to the hearing range of your "voice."

By having this restriction it opens up new ideas for further restrictions.

One is that your spell cannot take effect if your "voice" is drowned by other background noise and become incomprehensible to the victims. For example, if you were to try and execute your spells in the middle of a rock concert it will be drowned by the sounds of roaring fans and rock music therefore it would not take effect regardless of how loudly you speak the words.

The other is the fact that this power relies heavily on the power of persuasion. You are in some ways quite similar to the medieval monks who would travel the world and preach the words of God. You are a preacher in the modern sense and if your words do not reach the intended targets it will have no effect. For example let's say you are up against someone who usually wears hearing aids but during the battle his hearing aids got fried. Your words will then no longer reach him and therefore the spell won't take effect at all.

Similarly if the person decided to wear earphones and cranked up the volume of their music so that they can't hear you, it will produce similar effect. Likewise you can shove a pair of pen into your ears and let the blood clot around it to stop sound from reaching you just as seen by Agnes Forces when Index stopped them with Sheol Fear.

The power of your spell is influenced by how many people you have listening to your words. The more people you have that are listening to you the more destructive your spells can become. But this is a double edged sword. You are in some ways going against the natural laws set by the world, in that what if there was even a shred of contradiction between your logical "Truth" and the facts as they stand? What if among the thousands you are preaching to there was one nasty person who decided to listen to his iTunes during your speech? Even one person among a crowd of thousand can shatter your spell this way because the spell cannot afford contradiction.

It definitely has strong potential growth but this is what I would call a Glass Cannon. It relies on the fact that everyone present is listening to you and able to listen to you. If you can't be absolutely sure of that then that's when your spell starts to show it's cracks and shatter.

Last but most importantly, your spell cannot target humans at all.

"Aleister Crowley is human."
"All humans are on fire."
"Thus, Aleister Crowley is on fire."


All humans are on fire, therefore not just Aleister Crowley but everyone within hearing range including yourself will be put on fire. Mentioning of the word human would apply to anything that is human not just the specific name of that target. We've also decided to further nerf this so that it can't be used to target humans in general. There is no way for anyone to "dodge" a event that is happening by the time the words are spoken. So with those two reasoning I would like to conclude that targeting humans are impossible without targeting yourself.

This rule goes beyond the human in question, but also their weapons. I know this sounds foreign but most people who practice martial arts will admit that when they practice they acknowledge the weapon as an extension of their own body and spirit. This isn't just my personal view, rather it's a widely accepted idea and therefore you are unable to shatter someone's weapon using your spell because it's an extension of the human wielding it.

Then you ask yourself well what is my spell able to accomplish then?

Say for example you wield a butter knife and by logic you have made this butter knife able to pierce through steel. You are able to easily slice through steel armor with ease. But that's it, after you slice into steel it will be stopped when it meets flesh because a butter knife is unable to cut through flesh. Abit like how Terra of the Left can cut through steel with a sword made of flour. He can direct it so that flour is stronger than steel but he can use that theory once at a time. It can cut through steel but can't cut through anything else.

But then what if you were using something sharp to begin with?

Say if you had a box cutter and you announced it can cut through steel. It will then cut through steel as well as flesh because ordinarily it can cut through flesh.

Other application? Let's say you announced that basket balls weighs a ton as you throw one to your victim. This gives them time to react and if it hits it will do a ton of damage. Or say if you have a foam sword and you announce that foam is indestructible it then becomes a weapon that can block against Kanzaki's Nanasen provided you can react fast enough.

You have the ability to impose different conditions to your surroundings other than humans. But the conditions are that it must be able to hear you. It will unfortunately not work against entities created by magic like Sherry's golem which already defies common sense and logic in order to manifest.

I think I just about covered it all. Any questions?

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Ascanius Benedict on Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:22 am

(ED: All right, so I originally made this post to respond to Iva's first comments. I'll mark where that post starts and ends. Afterwards, I'm gonna respond to Index' comments, a lot of which I think I addressed in the first part.)

Part I

Your first point makes some sense, but I'm worried that it would be rather difficult to find any Christian-related book in Academy City, since Aleister knows all about magic and so would want to limit its sources in his city. I think my current system makes sense, but I can increase the inconvenience for casting spells from non-Christian books if you'd prefer that. In addition, I can take out the ability to use magic without a book.

Besides, buying Christian books would probably put you on some sort of "watch list." Academy City doesn't seem like they'd take many chances with that sort of thing.

I don't like the speaking part for a few reasons. For one, because one of Ascanius' weaknesses is supposed to be his poor knowledge of Japan, both the language and customs. Having to say the syllogism in a language understandable to most people would put him at a very significant disadvantage when using magic in Japan, as well as many other places. Another reason is that Ascanius is meant to be a stealthy character by nature, so having to proclaim his syllogisms in addition to the already-noticeable light they produce would detract from his spying ability. However, I'm willing to make this change if the restrictions on the volume of the proclamation are more lax, meaning that he could say it in a soft voice if he needs to in order to not give himself away.

Good point about that "influencing a person's mind." I hadn't thought about it that way, certainly. Thanks for bringing that up, I'll make sure to add a clause limiting that. I'm gonna rewrite the ability at the end of this short response section, so stay tuned.

The "projectile word" idea is the better of the two, and that's what I'll go with. However, I'd also like an option for dealing with enemies out of his line of sight - Perhaps a greater chance for failure, combined with a longer preparation time?

I'm cool with the "no blocking" idea. Ascanius is fast, so he has good chances of dodging. He doesn't need to be able to block.

What I was going for with the disappearance was just "them not being able to logically exist anymore," but now that that's in writing it seems similar to another God-level spell, Regina della Mare Adriatico, so I'll add a clause saying he can't do that either.

With that having been said, the revised power:
Syllogistic Reality:
Ascanius can use a simple form of logic, syllogisms, to manipulate reality. Syllogisms are formed in three lines with two premises and a conclusion:
"Socrates is a man."
"All men are mortal."
"Thus, Socrates is mortal."

In order to create the spell, two premises are required. One of the premises must be absolutely, undebatably true. The other one is false, but it is imbued with magic power in order to trick the Universe in believing that it is true. Because of these two premises, one true and one fake, a false "conclusion" comes into being and affects the Universe.
True Premise: "The object I am holding is an egg."
False Premise: "All eggs are apples."
False Conclusion: "The object I am holding is an apple."
This syllogism would change the egg the caster is holding into an apple. However, since only the conclusion affects reality, the only egg changed into an apple is the one referred to in the conclusion.
This magic is based on the Christian doctrine that God is an inherently logical being that created an inherently logical Universe. Since humans were made "in the image and likeness of God," they too can use logic to a limited extent to manipulate the Universe around them. Syllogisms, as one of the simplest forms of logic, provide an easy opportunity to effect these manipulations.
Since Ascanius' magic derives from Christian doctrine, he needs a copy of that doctrine in front of him to use the magic. In short, he needs a book. Not all books are equal, though. The older a book is, the longer it has been in this reality, and the better it functions as a tether. In addition, Ascanius' magic works best when used with books written in Latin, Greek, or Aramaic/Hebrew since his magic is derived from Christianity and these three languages are intrinsically related to it.
Finally, the book is much more effective if it's in a language Ascanius knows. Of those three languages, the only one Ascanius is fluent in is Latin, so it would be the most effective. The difference is large when all three factors are brought into account: A 1st-century Latin manuscript would allow him to bring up his spells almost instantly, while a Russian novel printed the day before he used it could take upwards to 60 seconds to get a syllogism running. With the book which he typically uses, a 1480 Latin Bible, he takes from 2 to 5 seconds to finish a spell.

A second weakness is in the manifestation of the spell. Although the effects the magic produces cannot be negated, its physical form can be dodged. When constructing a syllogism, Ascanius holds the book out in front of him and seemingly "pulls" the three lines of the syllogism out while muttering them aloud. These three lines are written in whichever language the book is in, although the dictation is generally in Italian, since that's the language he knows best. These three lines will remain for a minimum of however long the syllogism takes to prepare, a time which is based on the other conditions. However, they can remain for as long as Ascanius can concentrate on them. Any syllogism Asganius prepares, he must still be conscious and concentrated in order to use it. Even if he is preparing a three-line set, if he is knocked unconscious while preparing it, it will not take effect. In addition, he can only prepare a single syllogism at a time, so it is to his advantage to prepare and use them as fast as possible. When he wants to "fire" the syllogism, under normal circumstances, the three lines condense into a single one, the last line describing the conclusion, and "shoots" toward the target. Although this is fast, if the target is fast enough themselves they could dodge the spell. There is also a method for targeting people out of Ascanius' line of sight, somewhat like an area-effect syllogism. Its range, however, is only about 1/16 mile, and it has a higher chance of failure. In a severe circumstance, it may even backfire on Ascanius, subjecting himself to whatever the effect is. For this reason, he prefers to see his target.

Another reason why a direct line of sight is preferable is because Ascanius needs to have a clear picture of whatever his target for the spell is. For example, if he desired to use a syllogism on the General Superintendant of Academy City, he has no idea what they look like. Therefore, the spell would have a remarkably high chance of failure or backfiring. Ascanius' magic has the least chance of failure if he is either looking at the target at the moment, or has seen the target within the past 2 minutes. The less detail he can remember them in, the less of a chance the spell has of succeeding.

Finally, there are certain things which even his syllogisms cannot do.
1. They cannot interfere with the subject's will. This is derived from the Christian view of voluntary action, where not even God can take away a person's free choice. Instead, he can only influence the will through his position as First Mover, through proposing an apettible object for the will, or through changing the body. Ascanius is not the First Mover, so he can only use the latter two methods. He can use syllogisms to change an object to one which the target would desire, or he can induce minor changes in the target's body to push them towards his desired decision.
2. Ascanius cannot simply create or destroy objects. He can alter them and their compositions, but creation and destruction are things which are left to God, the First Mover.
3. The ways in which Ascanius can affect humans or living creatures are very minor. The more "rational" a being is, the more difficult it is to use ration against: A paradox similar to the fact that it is very easy to magically fly, but also very easy to prevent magical flight. He cannot physically alter the body, and the most severe ways he can induce "changes" in humans are through causing hormone imbalances, though he doesn't know this consciously.

(END OF ORIGINAL POST)

Part II

Hearing range provides a good example for an attack range, but the other restrictions on volume don't make much sense regarding his power. It's true that if it were to function on humans only, then that would work. However, his power also affects objects. Objects don't have a hearing range, and I think the "power of persuasion" idea is a misinterpretation.

Ascanius isn't persuading anyone except, in a very loose sense, the Universe. More accurately, he is using the inherent logicalness of the Universe to do work for him. It would take a large amount of magical power to exact your will against the Universe. Instead, Ascanius' brand of magic, "Syllogistic Reality," works with the Universe and takes advantage of it. It is more difficult to make real "The egg I am holding is now an apple" than it is to ground the statement in reality: "The object I am holding is an egg, all eggs are apples, so the object I am holding is an apple." He is using the Universe to do work for him and make magic take less effort. There is no persuasion necessary.

You're also misunderstanding completely the effects of the spell. You cited the example of Aleister Crowley and being set on fire, which I actually nerfed in the first part of this post for a different reason (because performing that sort of spell goes against human free will). However, you said that "all humans would be set on fire," which isn't right. Only the conclusion affects reality. You might have been overestimating his power on this point - His character is supposed to not have a lot of actual power, but he's able to use his highly-structured magic in order to amplify it. That's why his power is supposed to decrease dramatically when he isn't operating in optimal conditions, such as using a book in an unfamiliar language or not knowing what his target looks like. They "knock gears out of place" in the structure he has set up, and so he has to put more magic power into getting the spell to work and thus gets less of an effect.

I'm actually glad you brought up Terra of the Left, because he was one of the two inspirations for Ascanius' power. Terra can simply declare things to be of higher or lower precedence, one thing at a time. Ascanius, when he has the right materials, has a less "powerful" but more versatile power, although it still only works one thing at a time.

Ascanius can only prepare one syllogism at a time, and how long it lasts depends on the type of effect it produces. Effects changing the composition of things, such as eggs into apples, are permanent. However, effects changing the capabilities of things, such as making an egg able to withstand a bullet, only last until the next syllogism begins to be prepared.

You summarized your statement in the last paragraph, and I like it a lot. There are a few things I'm worried about, one that it's getting away from the complex arrangements needed to fully use the power, and another about how to gauge the "hearing" part for inanimate objects. I gave a solid range of 330 feet, which isn't that far. I have absolutely no objections to his magic not affecting humans or magical beings like Ellis (or Innocentius, for that matter).

I hope this makes at least some sense! I tried to combine two posts into one, but I think I addressed a lot of issues raised.

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  [Old] Index on Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:14 am

Sounds reasonable on my side so I'll hand it back over to Iva =D

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Mugino Shizuri on Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:29 am

Then back to me it goes.

#1 We already discussed that Bible part on the Chatbox, so please put the requirement of the bible into your description. The symbol of God’s laws should be a minimum to be used for executing this spell, not to forget the fact that this is a Christian spell, requiring actual Christian symbols in order to work.

#2 Speaking the syllogisms out in a lower volume would be alright with me, as long as they are spoken out in some way. The language shouldn’t really matter either.
I also feel like making a declaration actually should be a baseline of this spell, as a declaration of itself is a symbol of absoluteness; meaning from the moment on the conclusion was declared it’d become an undeniable reality.
Hope you get what I’m referring to.

These three lines are written in whichever language the book is in, although the dictation is generally in Italian, since that's the language he knows best.
Just a suggestion: Let it be Latin instead of Italian. It’s the language of the Roman Catholic Church after all, thus he as a monk should even prefer to use it; while it’d also be another strong symbol used to benefit the spell’s execution.

By the way: Range should always be named in metres as well, just for everyone’s convenience’s sake.

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Ascanius Benedict on Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:08 pm

All right! Here's the power, with all the revisions added! Anything else I should tweak before I add it into the main post?

Syllogistic Reality:
Ascanius can use a simple form of logic, syllogisms, to manipulate reality. Syllogisms are formed in three lines with two premises and a conclusion:
"Socrates is a man."
"All men are mortal."
"Thus, Socrates is mortal."

In order to create the spell, two premises are required. One of the premises must be absolutely, undebatably true. The other one is false, but it is imbued with magic power in order to trick the Universe in believing that it is true. Because of these two premises, one true and one fake, a false "conclusion" comes into being and affects the Universe.
True Premise: "The object I am holding is an egg."
False Premise: "All eggs are apples."
False Conclusion: "The object I am holding is an apple."
This syllogism would change the egg the caster is holding into an apple. However, since only the conclusion affects reality, the only egg changed into an apple is the one referred to in the conclusion.
This magic is based on the Christian doctrine that God is an inherently logical being that created an inherently logical Universe. Since humans were made "in the image and likeness of God," they too can use logic to a limited extent to manipulate the Universe around them. Syllogisms, as one of the simplest forms of logic, provide an easy opportunity to effect these manipulations.
Since Ascanius' magic derives from Christian doctrine, he needs a copy of that doctrine in front of him to use the magic. In short, he needs a Christian book, one with significant ties to Christianity. Not all those are equal, though. A picture children's bible would not work as well as, for example, the original writings of one of the Church Fathers. The older a book is, the longer it has been in this reality, and the better it functions as a tether. In addition, Ascanius' magic works best when used with books written in Latin, Greek, or Aramaic/Hebrew since his magic is derived from Christianity and these three languages are intrinsically related to it.
Finally, the book is much more effective if it's in a language Ascanius knows. Of those three languages, the only one Ascanius is fluent in is Latin, so it would be the most effective. The difference is large when all three factors are brought into account: A 1st-century Latin manuscript would allow him to bring up his spells almost instantly, while a Russian children's bible printed the day before he used it could take upwards to 60 seconds to get a syllogism running. With the book which he typically uses, a 1480 Latin Bible, he takes from 2 to 5 seconds to finish a spell.

A second weakness is in the manifestation of the spell. Although the effects the magic produces cannot be negated, its physical form can be dodged. When constructing a syllogism, Ascanius holds the book out in front of him and seemingly "pulls" the three lines of the syllogism out while muttering them aloud. These three lines are written in whichever language the book is in, although the dictation is generally in Latin, since that's the language of the Church. These three lines will remain for a minimum of however long the syllogism takes to prepare, a time which is based on the other conditions. However, they can remain for as long as Ascanius can concentrate on them. Any syllogism Asganius prepares, he must still be conscious and concentrated in order to use it. Even if he is preparing a three-line set, if he is knocked unconscious while preparing it, it will not take effect. In addition, he can only prepare a single syllogism at a time, so it is to his advantage to prepare and use them as fast as possible. When he wants to "fire" the syllogism, under normal circumstances, the three lines condense into a single one, the last line describing the conclusion, and "shoots" toward the target. Although this is fast, if the target is fast enough themselves they could dodge the spell. There is also a method for targeting people out of Ascanius' line of sight, somewhat like an area-effect syllogism. Its range, however, is only about 100 meters, and it has a higher chance of failure. In a severe circumstance, it may even backfire on Ascanius, subjecting himself to whatever the effect is. For this reason, he prefers to see his target.

Another reason why a direct line of sight is preferable is because Ascanius needs to have a clear picture of whatever his target for the spell is. For example, if he desired to use a syllogism on the General Superintendant of Academy City, he has no idea what they look like. Therefore, the spell would have a remarkably high chance of failure or backfiring. Ascanius' magic has the least chance of failure if he is either looking at the target at the moment, or has seen the target within the past 2 minutes. The less detail he can remember them in, the less of a chance the spell has of succeeding.

Finally, there are certain things which even his syllogisms cannot do.
1. They cannot interfere with the subject's will. This is derived from the Christian view of voluntary action, where not even God can take away a person's free choice. Instead, he can only influence the will through his position as First Mover, through proposing an apettible object for the will, or through changing the body. Ascanius is not the First Mover, so he can only use the latter two methods. He can use syllogisms to change an object to one which the target would desire, or he can induce minor changes in the target's body to push them towards his desired decision.
2. Ascanius cannot simply create or destroy objects. He can alter them and their compositions, but creation and destruction are things which are left to God, the First Mover.
3. The ways in which Ascanius can affect humans or living creatures are very minor. The more "rational" a being is, the more difficult it is to use ration against: A paradox similar to the fact that it is very easy to magically fly, but also very easy to prevent magical flight. He cannot physically alter the body, and the most severe ways he can induce "changes" in humans are through causing hormone imbalances, though he doesn't know this consciously.

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Mugino Shizuri on Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:28 am

I see not problems about the spell anymore, thus you should put it into the profile in order for me to proceed.

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Ascanius Benedict on Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:14 am

All right, copied into the profile!

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Re: [Magician] Ascanius Benedict

Post  Mugino Shizuri on Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:17 pm

I can't see anything wrong with it anymore. Not sure what else to say, so I'll simply go ahead and do this:

Approved.

And now be a good Magician and actually entertain the RP!

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